In the days of the first Intifada, which broke out in late 1987, you got involved with B’Tselem as their main field worker. That probably had you very active going all over the territories, trying to report on and verify violations? Yes, I still consider the first intifada as the “honeymoon” in the Palestinian cause. It wasn’t so violent. I think that because it was a much more a peaceful intifada, the Palestinians approached (closer to) their dreams. Now after the Palestinian Authority arrived, the people became more frustrated over their own government, because of the corruption, and mainly Yasser Arafat. I think that Arafat is the one who caused huge damage to the Palestinian people after he decided to open the second intifada in September 2000. He has passed away, but the Palestinian people are still stuck in the mud prepared by Arafat at that time.In your days with B’Tselem, weren’t you something of a star on the Israeli Left and even with the European Union? You even got a lot of awards for your work.
Yes, no doubt that was a wonderful time, the seven-and-a-half years that I spent with B’Tselem. I visited over 50 countries in that time, especially the Europeans, who wanted to show a certain kind of sympathy towards the Palestinians. Meantime, I think the Europeans also wanted to cause a kind of damage to the State of Israel. It looked like the Europeans were out for revenge on the State of Israel. But these days, unfortunately, the Europeans who used to support me, who used to give me awards, who used to invite me to their countries, today they consider me to be an anti-Palestinian, and a pro- Israeli. And this is how we as an organization lost any kind of funding from Europe.Because you went from working for this Israeli human rights group that was critical of the Israeli occupation, to establishing the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group which was critical of the PA, the Europeans cut off their funding?I don’t think the Europeans are interested to see a person like me criticizing the PA for 24 hours of the day.I think they have a specific political agenda here in the region, and it’s saying that all the Palestinians must hang all of their problems on the Israeli occupation. Don’t criticize the Palestinian Authority! You are not a country yet. So please focus on Israel, just as they are focusing on Israel all the time. But I don’t think that is benefiting the Palestinians in any way.Europe should be helping to fund the inculcation of democratic rights and freedoms? If the Europeans are really seeking a democratic Palestinian state, they should have to start working from now on with people like me, with an organization like PHRMG, in order to start moving the whole democratic system forward. But if Europe will continue turning a blind eye on the violations of human rights under the PA, I think that we are going to get another Syria here, or another Lebanon here.When you first started PHRMG, you had funding from Finland, from Ireland, some other countries, but you say it’s hard to get that now because your work is critical of the PA? Exactly, I think the Europeans probably think to themselves right now that they did a mistake with me, because a person like me who used to criticize Israel all the time with B’Tselem, they thought that this guy probably will continue doing the same things under the Palestinian group. But it looks like now that I probably bother them, or provoke them, when I start talking against the violations committed by the PA.I remember early in the Oslo peace process, you had an impact in the lead-up to the Palestinian elections in 1996 when you were criticizing the way the PA was suppressing freedom of speech. Weren’t you detained? Yes, I was detained on the 6th of January 1996 by the presidential security force on the order of Yasser Arafat himself, because I had started monitoring the Palestinian public media, how they were acting towards the election campaign. And, of course, I criticized Arafat for not allowing his competitor, the lady Samiha Khalil, to promote her own campaign on Palestinian TV. So a few hours after criticizing him, I was arrested on Arafat’s order.Some of your earliest work in PHRMG was also criticizing the PA for their campaign of rounding up socalled “collaborators,” land dealers, and then the journalists?There are so many people who were killed as alleged collaborators, without bringing them to any justice... Arafat gave a free hand for the Fatah gangsters during the second intifada to approach anyone alleged as a collaborator and to kill him... And this is how over 1,200 Palestinians, many alleged collaborators, were killed [by fellow Palestinians] in the second intifada.I remember you could have a financial dispute with someone and all you had to do was say they were a collaborator and they were gone.The majority of those killed, the background was family disputes and financial disputes rather than collaboration with Israel.Even in the first intifada, which you said was sort of “non-violent,” didn’t around 1,000 Palestinians die at the hands of other Palestinians? During the first intifada there were 600 Palestinians killed by the Israelis, and 1,200 Palestinians killed by Palestinians.So there was still a lot of violence going on.I think the second intifada made Palestinian society a very violent society, internally.Then you were detained because you did a report on torture by Palestinian security forces, on Palestinians detained for whatever reason. Tell us about that.Yes, that was the most critical report that came out of PHRMG, when we investigated hundreds of cases of arrests and prisoners tortured in both the West Bank and Gaza, and that caused a very deep hatred between myself and the PA.Then the second intifada breaks out in 2000, and I recall a ‘New York Times’ op-ed piece where you were advocating for Arafat to go back to nonviolent protests. Did that get you in trouble as well? I was threatened by some Fatah members after Arafat told them about some pieces I wrote in The New York Times or in the Israeli newspapers, and no doubt Arafat tried to make life very difficult for me. But what I’m happy with right now is that Arafat passed away.His successor Mahmoud Abbas is now advocating nonviolent protests, like you did. Are you happy with this?I don’t know what Mahmoud Abbas is advocating, if he is really advocating against violence. Before he can advocate a peaceful process, I think he has to put an end to the arresting of Palestinian journalists in the West Bank. To arrest a journalist, that means Abbas doesn’t believe in freedom of speech at all, and such a man cannot be a good advocator for peace or nonviolence.
Yes, just in recent days seven or so Palestinian journalists were arrested.And some of their offices have been closed by accusing these people of serving the interests of the enemy. I don’t know really who is the enemy here. Is it Israel or Syria or Iran? Who is the real enemy?There are these protests against the security fence in Bil’in and some other towns every Friday. Some of your old friends from the Israeli left and Palestinians come. Do you think it’s effective? Is it making a difference?I think that it’s completely over, all of the protests. I was in Bil’in recently and I saw only 15 people protesting. I think that the wall is a fact on the ground, the Palestinians won’t be able to remove it, and they are now more and more frustrated and hopeless and without any energy. Sometimes it’s upsetting me when I’m hearing that maybe the Palestinians will open a third intifada. Against whom and when will they do this? And who is going to do it? The economic situation of every Palestinian is below zero, and everyone is fighting only for one thing – how to continue surviving.Do you think the internal Palestinian fight between Fatah and Hamas has to be dealt with first before you tackle the problem of peace with Israel? I think that we became a very divided society, unfortunately, and without unity amongst the Palestinian society we will never be able to negotiate with the Israelis. We will never be able to agree about anything. I think the Palestinians still need probably a few years, to become a strong and united society.The rise of Hamas really represents the rise of Islamists in Palestinian society. We have seen Islamists being empowered through the Arab Spring. What are your observations on the Arab Spring? I don’t think that the Arab Spring is going to benefit Arab societies if they will be occupied by Islamism. I don’t think any freedom or democracy is on the way to Arab countries.So even though in some of these countries it was Arabs like you who believe in democracy, pluralism, freedoms and rights, that helped start the revolutions, you see the Islamists taking over?That is the tragic result. For me it will be very difficult to continue acting under an Islamist rule. And unfortunately, when I’m looking to Tunisia and to Egypt and Syria, I believe that even after Bashar Assad is gone, another Islamist will come there.Many Israelis are saying it’s hard to make progress on the peace process with the Palestinians, because we don’t know what is going to happen with all these neighboring countries, there needs to be stability there before we take more risks for peace. Is that valid?No doubt that what’s going on in the Arab countries is affecting the Palestinians, and this is why the Palestinian news today is probably below the page.Are you ready to write the obituary for the Oslo process? Do you think the two-state solution is past its time, that the window has closed? I think that the window is closed. And if Abbas will continue demanding the freezing of settlements, while [Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin] Netanyahu will still continue building the settlements, I believe that we are nearly approaching right now a kind of onestate solution for the two peoples.I was going to ask you about the one-state solution. Have you thought about advocating that?I personally don’t believe in that. I want my own state. But if things will continue like the situation we are looking at, I don’t think that there is any space for any independent Palestinian state at least in the coming five years.If there was a democratic Palestinian state and if some of the Jewish communities out in the territories wanted to stay there, would there be room for Jews in a democratic Palestine? If peace will take place, I think that anyone will have the full rights to live wherever he wants. If Jewish people want to continue living under Palestinian Authority rule, they are most welcome. But I’m worried if the PA will be able to provide security for these Jewish citizens. I’m not quite sure about that.I want to go back to the nonviolent protests. What did you think of the Mavi Marmara flotilla sponsored by the Turkish regime, and the flytillas into Ben-Gurion Airport?I don’t believe that flotillas will bring any independence to the Palestinians. I think that the Palestinians should have to be ripe enough to start very serious negotiations with the Israelis to solve the conflict. Other people coming from around the world – these people will never ever be able to solve the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.If we say that we’ve come to the demise of Oslo, what was the cause of death? On the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side?I believe that both sides should be taking responsibility for the situation that we are living under these days. I think the biggest mistake of the Oslo agreement is that the [sponsoring] countries never ever tried to establish a kind of controller for the agreement, to see that it was implemented by both sides. It’s a difficult position to be the mediator in this conflict. The British tried it, the Americans and others have tried.Who do you see as the successor to Abbas? He is getting old. Will the next leader be an improvement?I don’t see any Palestinian leader right now that I can believe he is the one who can solve my problem with the Israelis.
Even Marwan Barghouti, sitting in an Israeli jail? I don’t know him that well, but according to some Israeli sources he might be a good partner for the Israelis.But don’t forget also that the Israelis are the ones who brought Yasser Arafat here. They said that he might be a good partner. So if they decide he might be a good leader, please open the jail and let him free, and sit with him tomorrow morning. Maybe the conflict will be solved within 24 hours.Some Israelis say we should go back to the Jordanian option. What do you think will be the role of Jordan in the West Bank?I think that the majority of Palestinians believe that only Jordan can solve the problem, which means to solve the Israeli conflict we should have to go back to 1967, when the West Bank was under Jordanian rule and the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian rule.